Behind the walls: Working with violent offenders in Long Bay Gaol. Featuring Jono Clark.
Download MP3Okay. So here we are, guest number one, Jono Clark. And, I will say in the name of transparency that I've known Jono for a long time actually and we played music together back in the day, spent some time at university together and have continued a good friendship over many years. So Jono, welcome to the Who Says You Can't podcast.
Jono Clark:Thanks, Grantley. Great to be here. So Jono, when I spoke to
Grant Siedle:you about this maybe a week or a couple of weeks ago, said to you, you know, would you would you be interested in coming on the podcast? And I said to how does the title resonate? And I think initially you said, well, you know, maybe it's not quite right for me but after you went away and thought about it, what did you come up with in terms of who says you can't?
Jono Clark:Look, I thought it was actually a great question. It was one that initially I was trying to think of things I might have done that other people said I couldn't do and at that point I felt a little sort of conventional in a way. I'm not sure I'd done too many things that other people said I couldn't. There are some obvious examples that I've done some mountaineering in New Zealand where I mean, people who aren't into climbing or mountaineering might look at a mountain or a route you're planning to do and say, I don't I don't think you can do that. But really amongst mountaineers, I've never done anything that other mountaineers thought I couldn't do.
Jono Clark:But the more interesting, I guess, question for me was doing something that I thought I couldn't do. I mean, if I'm honest in that sort of physical domain or with with mountaineering, probably always had a confidence that I me and my climbing partner could sort of get things done even if at first it seemed a bit daunting. But I think what I wanted to talk about was an example where I really did have some deep seated doubts. In fact, I I thought I couldn't do this thing and that feeling sort of persisted well into actually doing the thing. And it involves my work as a psychologist at Long Bay Jail in Sydney.
Jono Clark:And I had to remind myself actually of of the dates. I was I was in my late twenties but I felt young at the time. I'd been to university obviously and studied psychology but after that I had made a brief attempt to have a career as a musician. I was playing in bands and teaching guitar and I know that realm. Yeah.
Jono Clark:You know that realm well. And selling guitars and I've done a fair bit of landscaping to try and support myself. And in fact, I was teaching guitar at Long Bay Jail for a while. And that's when I became aware that there were all these other people there. Some of them were psychologists and I thought, well, perhaps I better make use of this degree that I've got.
Jono Clark:And I sort of spoke to the head psychologist there one day and he said an opportunity was coming up. And to cut a long story short, literally in the space of a few weeks, I went from going in as a guitar teacher to going in as a psychologist. Wow. That's a big change. It was a big change.
Jono Clark:And I think I think some of the inmates were a bit suspicious that I'd sort of been an undercover guitar teacher.
Grant Siedle:That's interesting. I'd forgotten actually. I wrote a whole lot of notes and I'd forgotten that you'd started as a musician in there. So yeah, it was a big transition.
Jono Clark:It was a transition. So I mean when I began as a psychologist, obviously I'd had some exposure to the prison environment but really as a guitar teacher, you're kind of in and out pretty quickly but as a psychologist, you have a different role then. Was much more immersed in the culture of the prison. And it was really it was quite confronting. Was still finding my feet in the prison system, let alone as a psychologist.
Jono Clark:Because my background, you know, as you know, it was quite different from that sort of prison environment. I, you know, middle class family, private school, went to university.
Grant Siedle:Let's take it just a step back for one moment because this is great. We're straight into it but just I'm gonna cut in just for a moment. So John and I went to Melbourne University. Now you studied psychology and criminology, is that right?
Jono Clark:Psychology. Psychology, okay. I did
Grant Siedle:an honors degree in psychology. Okay. And as you say, you went to a private school and you played a lot of sports and you loved music. And how did you actually end up at the you know, you were living you moved to Sydney from Melbourne, didn't you?
Jono Clark:That's right. Yeah. I moved to Sydney. I didn't really know many people out there. It was a bit of a impulsive decision.
Jono Clark:So I was in a sense, I was still finding my my feet in Sydney and finding my feet in that sort of post uni part of your life where the structure's gone, you've sort of moved away from home probably, you're living out of home, dealing with all those things like paying for things and trying to put food in the fridge. So it was an unsettled sort of time still for me at that time.
Grant Siedle:And the guitar teaching was that a couple of times a week or how often were you actually in the jail doing initially?
Jono Clark:Oh, that's test my memory but I was probably down there a couple days a week. I was doing a fair bit of teaching outside of the prison. Right. In fact, I was teaching at a small music school and and literally someone rang from the prison rang one day and asked the manager of the of the music school, do you have anyone who'd be interested in coming to the prison? And he sort of threw the opportunity my way.
Jono Clark:So literally even being in the prison was just a I sort
Grant Siedle:of fell into that environment. Okay. And then so if we go back to what you were saying, then there was the transition. So when that came about, I guess, were you a bit taken aback initially at the idea and did you actually consider saying no?
Jono Clark:To the role of psychologist.
Grant Siedle:To the role of psychologist and maybe tell us a bit about what it entailed and what they're actually asking of you.
Jono Clark:Sure. I mean, the role of psychologist was, I was actually an intern psychologist at that point. So when you come out of university, you go through a period of internship. I guess there'd be an equivalent in in in medicine for example, before you become a fully registered psych. So you're you work under a supervisor and that was I mean, that was a big transition and confronting enough.
Jono Clark:I mean, the actual role that I wanted to talk about though, the the one that I had serious doubts about was not it was not as a psychologist, It was as a therapeutic manager of one of the programs within the prison. So I had found my feet a little bit in the prison environment and as a one to one counseling psychologist or intern psychologist working towards registration. But this role came up that had to be filled as a therapeutic manager of the violent offenders program at Long Bay jail. And for some reason, some people thought that I I might be suitable for this role and they were sort of suggesting I do it. And this is the role I really had some doubts about whether I could do.
Jono Clark:It was it was a fourteen week residential program for for 10 inmates at a time. Okay. And they were selected based on the fact that of their violent behavior in prison. So they were, you know, understandably a very difficult group of people to work with anyway.
Grant Siedle:So not not necessarily from what they've done before but actually based a little bit on their behavior in the jail.
Jono Clark:It was based on their behavior in the prison although in general they had been violent outside of prison but it was actually based on it was an attempt to improve the prison system in a sense to make it less violent by working with prisoners who were very violent within the prison system. So it involved working with very difficult inmates in a group. Up to that point, I'd only been working one to one with people. It also involved supervising over 20 staff, some of whom were prison officers who worked in the programme and some were delivered other aspects of the programme. There was a drama therapy teacher, there was a health and fitness instructor, there was an AOD group, there was a chaplaincy service.
Jono Clark:There are all these different aspects of the program in
Grant Siedle:addition Sorry, just quickly AOD, what
Jono Clark:is that? Alcohol and other drug service which is obviously a really necessary service in the prison system. And as well as for the therapeutic manager would run the psychological groups and do one to one sessions as well. But at that point I'd had no experience managing people at all. As I said, I was really just getting on top of managing myself and my own professional life and finding my feet as a psychologist.
Jono Clark:And I as I said, I kind of fell into psychology in a way and I was still yet to be convinced that even psychology was a really effective way of working with people. I mean, it sounds like a funny thing for a psychologist to say but I guess I wasn't totally convinced of the talk therapy, the effectiveness of talk therapy. And I guess the broader context there is, you know, my personality, I'm more towards the introverted side rather than the extroverted side. Tend to sort of internalize, I guess, and deal with things myself. And being in Australia, there's that sort of archetypal Australian male where you kind of internalize and work things out yourself.
Jono Clark:And in particular, don't necessarily share in a group. And I I hadn't realized the extent to which I'd I guess I'd internalized a fair bit of that sort of archetype. And so I was on my own journey to believing in psychology and counselling as a means of behaviour change.
Grant Siedle:Yeah. And then suddenly had to lead And
Jono Clark:then this opportunity came up to lead group therapy sessions which was for me that real next step again both in terms of my sort of professional development, also my personality. I was much more suited to one to one interactions and still am even in general. And the group environment for me is is more challenging than the one on one. So there are a few reasons why I really had my own sort of doubts about whether I could fulfill that role. And the other thing was I think I had in mind that a psychologist or a counselor in general was this sort of wiser older person who had all the answers.
Jono Clark:And of course that's not a great model for psychology at all. You're you're you're really someone who's a skilled helper and accompanying someone on their journey. But at that time I did have this idea and I I felt I felt well short of that. I I was still finding my own way. I had my own issues in my own life to deal with and didn't feel I was in a position to really dispense wisdom.
Jono Clark:And at the time there was another therapeutic program and the therapeutic manager of that program, he was this sort of archetypal charismatic older leader. And the therapy community model is one where, you know, you operate as a community that the inmates live, sleep, cook, exercise all in this particular area of the prison. It's like a prison within the prison. So throughout that program. That's right.
Jono Clark:Yeah. It's an entirely residential program.
Grant Siedle:Yeah. For how long again, just remind me how long It's fourteen week. Fourteen weeks. So they're all in that same unit for fourteen weeks while you, while you go through the program. Yep.
Jono Clark:That's right. And the same staff and you become it's a small community and the therapeutic manager in a sense is the is meant to lead that community. And as I say, the other there was another therapeutic manager there at the time and he was much more that archetypal charismatic leader that I definitely didn't feel I was. And unfortunately, he could have been a real mentor and supporter at that time but he in fact was very against the idea of me taking up this position. And I mean in retrospect, there are lot things I admired about him but I actually think in the end, he felt very threatened by the fact that a younger, less experienced person could potentially do the same job he was doing.
Jono Clark:He cultivated this kind of image of himself in a sense as being this charismatic, slightly dominating sort of leader of the community. And I don't think he wanted it to be seen that a younger less experienced psych could do the same sort of role.
Grant Siedle:Yeah. Do you think it was almost he thought it was undermining what he'd built himself up to be able to do and then suddenly a new person comes in. He was like, how could this person possibly do this?
Jono Clark:I I think it's exactly that. I think he felt undermined by the idea and he in turn was very undermining of me both in the lead up to me ultimately accepting that role. But even once I was working in that position, he was quite actively undermining in the conversations he had with staff about my program and the way I was running it. Wow. So yeah.
Jono Clark:That was a real obstacle for a while. But the I think what I had in in in favor on my side was there were a couple of other peep key people that believed I could do it. And I think if there's if there's sort of a general lesson for me out of this, it's that when you are faced with something that does seem a bit overwhelming and that you're not up to, you can often just take one or a few people who actually believe in you to, you know, to push you into that situation and then you'll then you sort of find out whether you can do it or not. But it's easy to balk at the door without
Grant Siedle:if
Jono Clark:you don't have a a subtle sort
Grant Siedle:of push in. Sometimes people talk about I know with my artistic stuff, it's the inner circle and the outer circle. And if you've you know well and truly who's in your inner circle for something and you can rely on them and you don't worry about the outer circle, I think it can be a great way of having an ally. So so, okay. So you get into this program and and you and and the aim of the program over the fourteen weeks is to try and improve the behavior of these, inmates and sort of is are there direct objectives?
Jono Clark:Yeah. I mean, it's to help those inmates deal with their violent behavior and to reduce the the incidence of violence in the prison system by targeting as we did what we considered to be sort of key operators within the prison system. But we we learnt as we went along. In fact, it was it was very difficult to bring together 10 of the most violent men in the system and expect them to function as a a as a group. Instead, you needed to have a more of a mix of personalities in the group.
Jono Clark:So initially, in fact, the initial groups were extremely sort of difficult and I mean the doubts I had about whether I could perform that role didn't go away once I started working. In fact, it was then the real challenges started and I I had these key allies, these people who who believed in me but in a sense once the door closes both sort of literally and figuratively you you are on your own at the helm of of of the program.
Grant Siedle:So let's actually just go to a couple of specifics. So for example, your very first session, I don't know if it's something that sticks in your mind but are you are you in a room do you think by yourself with with these
Jono Clark:inmates? It would have been. I mean, I can't say I remember the very first session, but I I do remember the the early days of first first of all meeting the staff and the prison officers of their own group and come with their own challenges to work with. There's an interesting sort of sort of conflict for prison officers in a way, particularly working in a therapeutic program in that they do have a punitive custodial function but we're also asking them to work in a more therapeutic way with prisoners. And, you know, it's fair to say that that the prison prison officers were sort of bought into the therapy component to different extents.
Jono Clark:And so even in those early days, I sort of met with a bit of, I guess, suspicion or clearly I was working with people that didn't necessarily believe in the program itself or that was going to be effective or that psychologists were, you know, were effective. So although I had sort of support from other psychologists, once you're in that system, you're kind of alone in trying to recruit support and trying to win people over in a sense. And then of course there's meeting the the first group of prisoners to come in. They're all strangers. You're a stranger.
Jono Clark:All men? All men. It was a male prison. Yeah. All men.
Grant Siedle:And Long Bay jail has a bit of a history of, well, it's got a long and rich history but I mean, we're talking some of the worst, you know, some of the most violent or there's a lot of different divisions in there. There are
Jono Clark:a lot of different sections of Long Bay jail. I mean, this this was a maximum security environment Yeah. For maximum security prisoners. And as I said, we they were selected on the basis of their violent behavior. So yeah.
Jono Clark:I mean, some some of them were were sort of you might say notorious both within and outside the system, but others were they were just people who were, I guess, perpetrators and instigators of violence within the system and that's why we were working with them to try to I mean, to your question before about what was the objective, the objective was to have people for fourteen weeks and for them then to go back to their prisons and to be not only more able to deal with their own anger but to kind of spread the word so to speak. I mean that was quite an ambition we had which you know, I'm not sure if we've totally achieved that. It's a big ask to ask an inmate to go back outside of therapy community back to their prison and
Grant Siedle:To become an ambassador for your program.
Jono Clark:Yeah. To become an ambassador for our program.
Grant Siedle:Well, that's great. You should you should go in there and spend some time with this guy. He's really But
Jono Clark:even to start conducting themselves in a different way because I mean one of the big learnings in the prison is it's not like working in the outside world. You're working with people who are trying to survive and often being aggressive and violent is safer for them than not being. I mean, it's a way of protecting themselves. It's a way of projecting the fact that, you know, if you mess with me, it's gonna be a lot of trouble for you and so, you know, to move on to someone else. And so to ask Bill to go back and kind of be more vulnerable
Grant Siedle:But let's and say, hey, listen, let let's talk about this. Yeah. Exactly. Why don't we have a discussion and see if we can work out our objectives and become friends?
Jono Clark:Exactly. You know, it's I mean I like to say that wasn't at some level that was probably our sort of idea that in some form that's what would happen. But of course, know, that's a big ask for prisoners. So meeting the prisoners for the first time, that's a whole learning curve itself. It's a fourteen week programme as I said so we did have time to build a relationship.
Jono Clark:But at first, it's I really felt like I was sort of battling everybody. You're battling to win over staff, battling to build rapport and trust with the group participants. And as I say, kind of battling my own doubts about whether I could fill that sort of role. And if I'm honest, I I I, you know, I had some issues myself with anger. So
Grant Siedle:Yeah. So you've hinted at obviously a few of your own challenges and you don't have to go right into it but I mean essentially obviously being in a new city, finding your way a little bit, can you highlight a few of the challenges that you had yourself as you say anger is part of it?
Jono Clark:Sure. I mean that that's sort of an internal thing. Guess in terms of just my personal life, was it was actually a very tumultuous time in my life. Not just the moving to a new city but it just happened to coincide with some relationship sort of ups and downs were very challenging and a few other things as well that were made it one of the more difficult times in my life actually. But in terms of my own sort of psychological journey if you like or journey through my own issues, it was I don't know if ironic's the word but to end up in a violent offenders program was it was somewhat ironic because I it was something that I'd had issues with when I was younger, anger.
Jono Clark:Yeah. And we're still working through all that sort of stuff. So and it kind of as I said before, it sort of clashed with my idea that maybe as a psychologist you are meant to have worked all this stuff out and you were gonna dispense the wisdom and the way forward. And it's not a great mindset to have but it was one I I think I did have and so I felt what can I do with these men? I mean, I'm still working through my own stuff and I just have nothing in common either with these men, with their background.
Grant Siedle:Do you think at the time or even now upon reflection you ever looked at some of those men and thought if I don't take certain steps myself, I could potentially end up, I'm not saying in jail, but like in a situation like this. Because I seem to recall you telling me once you met a few inmates who hadn't had a violent or criminal history but they had sort of had one or two episodes that had basically they'd blown up and that ended up in a situation where they ended up in jail.
Jono Clark:Look, I don't know if I'd quite say that I felt at that time if I didn't address things I might end up in that situation but I certainly you certainly meet people and you think, if I had that set of circumstances growing up or if I'd faced those challenges you had, there's every chance I would be where you are. And it certainly made me feel just so aware of the lottery of life and and that I was in the position I was in as the psychologist in a program and not sitting in the other seats as a an inmate largely by virtue of things beyond my control. I mean, the circumstances of birth, the family I was born into, the education environment I was born up in. It's a bit of a cliche but the vast majority of inmates do have a bit of a cliche background. They come from dysfunctional family background.
Jono Clark:There's often elements of abuse to different and neglect to different extents in their childhood, exposure to alcohol and drugs and violence. And what we now know really is that if you want to produce a violent adult, you can pretty reliably do that by creating certain circumstances in childhood. And as I say, it's a bit of a cliche but if you if you go into the prison environment, you realize it's a cliche that has a lot of truth to it that most people in prison are there, you know, because of largely because of the disadvantages and challenges they face growing up. And to answer your question, I I certainly felt that if I had the same set of circumstances, I could well have gone down the same path. And that's quite an unsettling sort of feeling to think that it's actually not really anything special about me that's, you know, kept me in the mainstream sort of path.
Jono Clark:It's actually more circumstantial and it's quite humbling in a way.
Grant Siedle:Yeah. Was gonna use that word humbling.
Jono Clark:Yeah. It really is. And I think, you know, and we might circle back to this but that actually I think can be a real advantage when you're working with in that environment. I mean, was aware of many of the disadvantages or things that I felt where I fell short of where I thought I should be in that role. But looking back I think, in fact, some of those things I identified as weaknesses or felt were challenges were actually strengths.
Jono Clark:I mean, for example, working through my own anger issues, I think that helps you come across as someone who's on a journey with the people you're working with and that you're not somehow outside of their journey dispensing neatly packaged sort of wisdom. Even things like feeling quite young.
Grant Siedle:The age I guess ranged a fair bit but with these men you're working with what do you think the rough ages would have been?
Jono Clark:Well we did have a range rather of ages. Mean I was in my mid to late twenties. As I said at the beginning there, when I checked the dates the other day, I realized I was a bit older than I thought I was.
Grant Siedle:Yeah. What were the dates and how old were you?
Jono Clark:Well, so this was in the late nineties, mid to late nineties and I was in my mid to late twenties over this period. Yeah, it's pretty
Grant Siedle:it's fairly young really.
Jono Clark:Was quite young. I mean many of the inmates were younger, it's true to say but some were older and I did find it particularly challenging working with older men. I just somehow felt what what could I tell someone who's older than me. But as I say, some of those things being young, I think in retrospect turned out to be to have two sides. There can be disadvantage but there can be advantage as well.
Jono Clark:I mean, it the the guys in the group I think can relate more to you if you are coming across as a as a peer in a way. Yeah. And and being feeling like I didn't really have this position of authority or wisdom to impart, in retrospect I think that also helped.
Grant Siedle:Maybe kept them a bit more open.
Jono Clark:Yeah. I mean I think they felt he is someone who is not necessarily putting himself above us. Yeah.
Grant Siedle:That's a big thing I would imagine.
Jono Clark:Yeah. Because initially that's the dynamic. They're, they're, they are an inmate in a prison and you're a psychologist, you know, whatever that is. You've had
Grant Siedle:a better life, you know more.
Jono Clark:Yeah. And and just, know, there's often this thing about psychologists too where that somehow it's just sort of, occult order you've been admitted to where you know all these secrets and you can read minds and, you know, it's it's crazy. But for them to over time and pretty quickly I think encounter someone who actually didn't have much wisdom at all. Turned out to be kind of a a a strength. A good one.
Jono Clark:Yeah. Yeah.
Grant Siedle:So with so then how many of with this program, so then as you got sort of into the program, as you said, on the one hand the door closed and you thought, wow, I'm really alone here. But did you then gather some momentum and some some confidence even perhaps during that first program that ran for fourteen weeks? How did you view it at the end of the first program? Look, it was a bit
Jono Clark:of a whirlwind. I mean, it it remained It was pretty confronting. I mean, And it was emotionally absolutely exhausting. The thing that I underestimated I underestimated I think almost everything but one of the things I underestimated in managing people, just managing the staff was that as anyone who's been involved in management would know, it's largely or it can become largely about managing disputes between staff, managing staff who are struggling in their role. Maybe they're really in the wrong role.
Jono Clark:And in the particular environment I was in, was managing disputes between inmates and prison officers to mediating those disputes. And, you know, I wasn't a great manager and I I still think I'm not a great manager because my my inclination myself is to kind of just try and deal with my own challenges and get on with it. I guess I naturally expect that of other people. But of course, as a manager, you have to be prepared to step into those situations and, you know, and and media those situations and help people grow into their roles and that was something I looking back that I wasn't good at. And that was a real challenge from the get go in just responding to the challenges the staff were facing in addition to my own sort of challenges.
Grant Siedle:I do believe though in your later career you've also sort of been, even though it wasn't your role, you've been asked to step in at work and kind of work in a dispute resolution zone.
Jono Clark:Yeah, I have. I mean, again, it's one of those ironies that as a psychologist you're naturally cast in that role. I mean, it's necessarily part of your role, particularly in an organisational context that you, you know, you mediate disputes or you help resolve disputes. So as well as growing into my role as a psychologist and my belief in counseling and therapy, I was also had to sort of quickly grow into the role as a manager and realize that it was not just about running the therapeutic part of the program. It was about managing staff and helping them as well.
Grant Siedle:And how long were you there for in the end in terms of this rehabilitation role?
Jono Clark:In that program, I was there for around about three years.
Grant Siedle:Okay.
Jono Clark:Yeah. Two and a half to three years I think. So look, by the end of that time you, I I did grow into it. Although the episodic nature of it, the fact that it's a fourteen week program and those inmates then go and a new lot come in means that you constantly actually having to rebuild and reestablish the relationships and staff would come and go as well. So I think I got better at dealing with the challenges but in fact they they would come up every program.
Grant Siedle:All the time. You did people ever come back? Because they enjoyed it so much and they wanted to become a better ambassador for your program. Yeah.
Jono Clark:I've got to see Jono again. That's a good question. While I was there. I mean we wouldn't we wouldn't have in fact admitted someone back in within a certain period of time. Yeah, sure.
Jono Clark:But I think the programme continued on after I left and I think they did have some guys sort of roll back through. But the real just as a in terms of the therapeutic component of the role, the real challenge for me began with running groups and how different that was from one to one interactions. I think as, you know, as anyone who sort of sat in a circle for any purpose sort of realizes that there's this quite powerful phenomenon about just sitting in a circle. It's, You know, the power of the circle. And when you're in the driver's seat so to speak and you're sort of asking the questions and you're you're putting people in the hot seat.
Jono Clark:In fact, we used to call it the hot seat
Grant Siedle:that Yeah. Right. Literally.
Jono Clark:You have to really quickly learn how much pressure you're putting on that person that you're asking a quite personal question to. I mean we were there to explore, you know, why people were violent and some of the sources of their behavior and so that necessarily becomes a conversation that's quite personal and you're asking people to disclose and I'm sure you can imagine, you know, getting those type of men together in a group, they're not inclined at all to share.
Grant Siedle:Did you have any confronting situations where there was, you know, obviously a bit of anger or even some violence within that circle.
Jono Clark:There were some episodes of violence in the program, not so much during a group physical violence, but what I became used to encountering, I mean, and everyone who runs group therapy sessions encounters this, is that the group itself sort of can collectively resist.
Grant Siedle:Yeah.
Jono Clark:There's a sense in which you might be focusing your questions on one person but the rest of the group will sort of collude in in not going deep if you like because they don't want to be the next person who's asked being asked those questions. And so there's a, it can be as sort of every day is just retreating into humor, people making jokes. It's a way of relieving that sort of tension. And as I say, that there's a sense which everybody participates in that. So you're, you're constantly trying to corral people, get people back on track.
Grant Siedle:I have to say just quickly, sorry to interrupt, but I even though I can't fully relate to this, I did go to a Roman facility once. Did you? And I went with a friend of mine who was doing talks in the Roman facility and he was he was trying to give back and get people to open up and it was fascinating. I've never forgotten this one moment because I was I just wanted to be a fly on the wall. I was probably in my early thirties and I just wanted to observe what was happening and it was a bunch of men, no one wanted to say anything and this guy was like like a comedian or like dying on stage.
Grant Siedle:He was getting no response at all. And then it was interesting, one guy actually, one guy pointed at me and said, what's your story? And I I was not there to share. I was just curious. But when I look back on it, it's like, well, who am I to think I can be a voyeur Yeah.
Grant Siedle:In this very private setting? And I had to open up and I actually was quite more open than I thought I would be. Yeah. It makes me a bit emotional now.
Jono Clark:Yeah. Yeah.
Grant Siedle:And and the guy
Jono Clark:It's a powerful thing.
Grant Siedle:Yeah. And the guy then responded and said, oh, it's good to hear, you know, what what you've been up to. And then the guy actually, the one who was running the session actually said to the bloke, you've just become more interesting. Yeah. Because you've asked someone about themselves.
Grant Siedle:Yeah. And it actually set the session. The session got going.
Jono Clark:Yeah. Right. That's a great story that really rings true. I mean for one thing we would sometimes have visitors come into the groups and we realised very quickly it did not work to have them sort of sit outside the circle or somehow watch straight away the immense Who who are you?
Grant Siedle:What are you doing here?
Jono Clark:Yeah. And really challenge them that they would have to come into the circle and that very similar thing actually now I think about it, it wasn't until that person, you know, the visitor had shared something, had shown some, I guess, respect and vulnerability that they sort of accepted. But the yeah. It's a great example of of the of the the power of the group and and the collective sort of mind of the group to either resist going deep Mhmm. Or to demand some that you that that you show that you're willing to before you're accepted.
Jono Clark:And I realized myself that
Grant Siedle:So you had to share a bit about yourself.
Jono Clark:I did. Yeah. I mean there's there's obviously
Grant Siedle:There's gonna be a line there somewhere.
Jono Clark:There's there's a line there as a as a psychologist but also because you're working in the prison there's a sentence, you know, you've got to sort of be a little careful about disclosing personal information that for example just might identify, you know, where you live or anything like that. But yeah, very quickly I realized you couldn't sit there and just ask the questions and demand things about the people unless you were willing to do that, you know, show yourself that you were willing to do that. And I mean, it raises another interesting point that that is a personal sort of challenge and that is, as I said before, my inclination was not really to share in groups. And so even in myself, I had to counter the temptation to kind of collude might be the word with the group in not getting too uncomfortable.
Grant Siedle:Yeah. And say, hi guys, I understand you're on talk because I don't talk either. Yeah. Why don't we all just sit here and make some jokes?
Jono Clark:Exactly. And even if you were not to say something like that explicit, it can actually be very subtle the way in which you avoid encroaching on topics that you would be uncomfortable talking about and that can, you know, not be for the benefit of the person. They might need to sort of go there. And so every day for me was really quite a personal challenge in pushing myself beyond my own sort of comfort levels. And I mean, you asked before whether any sort of violent any violence in the group, not physically, but there there was a lot of anger expression in the group.
Jono Clark:And the other thing that group facilitators, anyone who's facilitated groups would be aware is that the discomfort and the tension and the anger that is felt by individuals in the group or by the group automatically or naturally gets directed at the group facilitator. So I I was the sort of conduit and the almost the punching bag at times for the men in the group for their discomfort and their anger because, you know, if you if you make someone feel a little uncomfortable, not intentionally, but they they feel uncomfortable that can quickly, particularly with this particular population, quickly turn into anger. I mean, this is the thing you're working with with people. That anger response and that anger then gets directed at you. And I would often leave groups and and go home at the end of the day feeling really battered around.
Jono Clark:I mean, absolutely exhausted and, you know, sometimes just make it in the door before, you know, collapsing and and often getting quite emotional myself. It would sort of come out when I got home. So, yeah, I mean, that that was sort of ongoing challenges through the program. And I don't know whether by the end of it I really felt, oh, you know, now I can I've do conquered it. Yeah.
Jono Clark:It remained a sort of a challenge. But the one thing I I sort of got more used to is you made the comment before the guy leading the group in that remands and dying on stage.
Grant Siedle:Yeah. Yeah.
Jono Clark:And I felt initially when I was running groups that if it didn't sort of go well or people weren't, you know, disclosing and making breakthroughs, know, that that it was a failure of mine and I would get very stressed, I guess. Yeah. But over time though, you sort of realise that you're there just to provide the opportunity and the space for people to work themselves. And if they don't take that opportunity, that doesn't necessarily, you know, reflect on you. But the yeah.
Jono Clark:That that that that phenomena of the group ganging up in a sense was very real. As you can imagine, our fourteen week program, I mean, some days the guys are up for another they just couldn't be bothered. They're tired. The last thing they wanna do is go into a group and be asked personal questions by this, you know, this psychologist. And I'm sure without prior agreement that those days the group was almost just impossible.
Jono Clark:They just sort of cooperated in not cooperating.
Grant Siedle:Yeah. Exactly. It was like an unwritten thing today. We're not getting into it today.
Jono Clark:We're not getting into it. I do remember actually, it's quite funny. We, there were different types of groups I ran. Some of them I ran on my own as a, what do we call them? That was sort of the therapeutic group And others were more of a structured psychological program that we actually wrote separately for these types of programs.
Jono Clark:So with elements of anger management and developing communication skills and all these sorts of things. And each group would have a warm up exercise, just a group warm up exercise. Sometimes a silly sort of thing. I remember in the early days getting in there and and opening the book to this first exercise and we just had this new group of prisoners literally come off the bus, you know, from wherever they'd come from. And often they'd come from segregation cells and yeah, because of their behavior.
Jono Clark:And all of a sudden, you know, for them, this sudden transition to they're sitting in a group and I open up the page and the first exercise is without talking I want you to all get out of your seats and form a washing machine.
Grant Siedle:Oh no. That doesn't I run some team building and that does not sound like It is just Easy to do.
Jono Clark:I was
Grant Siedle:dying. Yeah. You wouldn't wanna do it yourself.
Jono Clark:I wouldn't wanna do it myself. And That's
Grant Siedle:a litmus test.
Jono Clark:I remember getting together, you know, when we wrote this programme thinking what a great idea this was. But of course the reality when you're sitting there was, it was just that. And of course the guys just sit there, they don't get up. Yeah. And you sort of have this feeling of
Grant Siedle:Hey, science. Let's go to page two on the exercise So
Jono Clark:there were there were sort of lighthearted moments but I must say overall, it was a really exhausting time in my life. I did do it for, as I say, might have been two and a half, three years. And I needed to get out after that time. I mean, there were a lot there were a few other things we haven't really gone into, but there were disputes with staff in between me and staff. And at one point the union sort of got involved because I was asking staff to be involved in the program in a way that they didn't really want to be.
Grant Siedle:Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah.
Jono Clark:It was a time I recall as this being every turning up for work and it was dispute after dispute and meeting resistance after resistance and Almost just as challenging as
Grant Siedle:the as the inmate sessions. Yeah. The staff. Oh absolutely.
Jono Clark:Yeah. Absolutely. I mean with some of the groups it became some of the groups that went really well I guess and that the group formed really well and trusted each other became, going into into the group session with the inmates was the relief part of the day almost. And coming out of there was to enter back into Yeah. Wow.
Jono Clark:The world of disputes and and in fact, I sometimes felt like the better the prisoner group was coming together and my relationship with them was, the more difficult my relationship with prison officers were.
Grant Siedle:Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. So, Jono, I could certainly talk about this and who knows? We might do follow-up.
Grant Siedle:There's some very powerful themes here but in looking back now on that which is obviously quite a while ago and the other work you've done and your life in general, do you feel that's informed who you are so that period of time doing something that you didn't think you could potentially do? Do you think it's kind of given you some sort of additional strength or wisdom or insight into into facing other challenges?
Jono Clark:Undoubtedly. I mean, I think I do tend to hesitate to sort of draw life lessons from specific experiences, but there's no doubt that it was an example. And now one of many to me where, you know, if I was to draw a general lesson out of it would be that, you know, the the way to I guess to approach something that seems overwhelming is such a cliche but it's just to take it a step at a time. And I think the long the longer you spend looking at the whole overwhelming picture, the more anxious and discouraged you can get. And in fact, you know, the way in is almost always just to take it a chunk at a time and, a day at a time.
Jono Clark:And once you sort of get into something at that ground level, it can become more manageable. And I mean, that's really whether I consciously approach like that or I was just forced to really to get up each day and go in and just do whatever needed to be done that day and go home, eat, sleep. But over time that rhythm, I think, it's an old cliche that, you know, the big the achievement is really just an accumulation of small steps. And I I really like that idea of I've heard it described before as porpoising where you most of your time is spent diving down into the nitty gritty The depths. The depths, the day to day Some of them mundane, some of them difficult but you just sort of chip away and coming up occasionally
Grant Siedle:Bit of air.
Jono Clark:Porpoising up. Yeah. Light. To have a look at the the broader perspective but then diving back down.
Grant Siedle:And I think It's a
Jono Clark:great term porpoising yeah. Porpoising yeah and I know initially for me anyway to spend too long contemplating the whole is can be counterproductive. I think you need to just take take a step and start something. If I can end on a slightly dramatic note with a quote, this is actually a quote I had on my wall at that time and and throughout that period of my life actually and I found, I'm not really one for motivational quotes but it was such a good one. And it's actually interesting, I was looking at it the other day and it's, I've always attributed it to Goethe, the famous German polymath.
Jono Clark:But in fact, more recently, it's been found that he was quoting or it's just been misattributed to him. It's actually attributed more accurately to a guy named William Hutchinson Murray who was a Scottish mountaineer. So I love the fact that it's a mountaineer and Scottish. I've got some Scottish in my background
Grant Siedle:And he is a mountaineer by the way folks.
Jono Clark:Yeah but the quote is this and people might recognise it. Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back. Concerning all acts of initiative and creation, there is one elementary truth, the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans. That the moment one definitely commits oneself, providence moves too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred.
Jono Clark:A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material of assistance, which no man could have dreamed would have come his way. Whatever you can do or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. Begin it now.
